Curse

Crom The Pale · Sep 25, 2007, 04:49 PM // 16:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sab

- Skill balancing is extremely important to PvP
- Some of these balances affect PvE
- However, the effect on PvE is minor
- Lots of people don't understand my first and third point. That's the cause of great debate, seeing as skill balancing is one of the few points where PvE and PvP cross over.

What do you disagree with?

The effect is only minor depending on how much a person was using that skill in its original form.

Skill balances are not as extremely important in PvP as most think, what was needed more often than not was a new skill rather than changes to old skills. Adding new skills to offset skills that people veiw as over powered makes no impact on PvE, save it adds new skills that a montser may use against you. Changing skills does have a major impact on how a person plays this game.

Having a build that is fun to play with changed due to no fault on your part is tantamount to somebody changing the channel while your in the middle of your favorite TV show.

Saphrium · Sep 25, 2007, 04:51 PM // 16:51

I have seen some really bad Rank 10 PvP players. But I see more down-right idiotic FoW armor owners. So I say PvP skill balance is more important and PvE is really not as much.

I would not play GW2 if it ends up like Korean grinder, and I certainly agrees if you want to build a good following, do something unique like star wars and magic the gathering rather than making short-term profit by imitating others. (Jeff Strain's point)

Nebuchadnezzer · Sep 25, 2007, 05:03 PM // 17:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crom The Pale

The effect is only minor depending on how much a person was using that skill in its original form.

Skill balances are not as extremely important in PvP as most think, what was needed more often than not was a new skill rather than changes to old skills. Adding new skills to offset skills that people veiw as over powered makes no impact on PvE, save it adds new skills that a montser may use against you. Changing skills does have a major impact on how a person plays this game.

This is a really, REALLY bad viewpoint. Adding more and more skills is what Anet HAS done and it is one of the reasons they just can not balance the game anymore. The more skills, profs, and game mechanics they add the harder balance is. They're so bogged down in content right now, balance is virtually impossible.

Du Kor · Sep 25, 2007, 05:06 PM // 17:06

PvP and PvE are incompatable. In pve you go up against level 28 mobs. You find a build that works, and level 20 mobs seem easy in comparison. PvP may have real people on the other side but they are still level 20. So skills get nerfed for pvp back to level 20 range. This makes the PvE people mad, no surpise there.

The PvE game is also being held back by the PvP requirements. Nothing can be added without worrying about what it can do to PvP. Play your favorite character in PvE for 2 years and want to try something new? You cant change your primary profession, you must make a new character and start from 0. Why? because differentiating character professions is important for PvP. Want to run a warrior with 4 energy regen to take advantage of the your secondary profession? Cant be done, Why? It would imbalance PvP.

VanDamselx · Sep 25, 2007, 05:14 PM // 17:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Du Kor

PvP and PvE are incompatable. In pve you go up against level 28 mobs. You find a build that works, and level 20 mobs seem easy in comparison. PvP may have real people on the other side but they are still level 20. So skills get nerfed for pvp back to level 20 range. This makes the PvE people mad, no surpise there.

The PvE game is also being held back by the PvP requirements. Nothing can be added without worrying about what it can do to PvP. Play your favorite character in PvE for 2 years and want to try something new? You cant change your primary profession, you must make a new character and start from 0. Why? because differentiating character professions is important for PvP. Want to run a warrior with 4 energy regen to take advantage of the your secondary profession? Cant be done, Why? It would imbalance PvP.

The first part of your post makes no sense. Monsters are level 28 to make up power for brains. In PvP, there are really people behind there that can make up complex skill combinations that monsters wouldn't have the AI to do.

The reason you can't change your primary without deleting your character goes way beyond your example. Every character has a base of 2 energy pips, so if you changed to warrior, you'd simply lose your armor bonus. Besides the point, you'd have to change the whole look for your character including body style, hair, faces, armor, etc. Your example is pointless and makes absolutely zero sense.

Du Kor · Sep 25, 2007, 05:20 PM // 17:20

True Level 28 monsters use power to make up for brains, but your still fighting a 8 level penalty in damaging them. This makes a build that can damage level 28 monsters being able to damage level 20 foes all the more powerful. Hence the build gets nerfed to make it balance level 20 foes.

As for changing profession, as i said, the only reason it cant be done is that for pvp ele have to look like eles and war have to look like war. For pve this is not important. The pvp requirement removes design options for the pve element. Therefore pvp hidners pve evolution.

raddaman · Sep 25, 2007, 05:22 PM // 17:22

The excuse to not buff skills instead of nerf is to not encourage "Build Wars." Most of the time, people don't like to play rock, paper, scissors with pretty graphics. If you take an overpowered build and build a counter to it, then the counter would only be good against that build. You will get defeated by anything else that your build doesn't adapt to, and victory would be given before the gates ope.

There also are things that only have limited counters and they're normally not worth it or there aren't that many. Melandru's dervish can't be blinded, making the great Blinding Surge worthless. No cripple, making it harder to kite. No deep wound, making it harder to spike. You could interrupt the cast, but he could move away to not get hit by d-shot. This and the ability to spam a non-elite eviscerate. Shouts are un-removable buffs that affect the whole party with only three counters. Well of Silence can't be used when you can't kill them under their armor and buffs. The others are hexes that cost a bit.

No matter what the skill is, there will always be one person who says that it was in their favorite build. No point in arguing that. However, if a skill is used by a multitude of players, then it must have been effective. If everyone uses it and abuses it, then perhaps it was too good. Not all though, RoF is used by everyone and is not overpowered.

PvP will be more important when the rewards of fame and real-life products exist. PvP will constantly be under change, and there will be times when skills are found to be too effective. PvE has monsters who can not change their skill bars, which means a fast way to kill them will stay most of the time. The simple fact makes me believe that PvErs just hate any kind of change for some reason. Find a slightly slower way to farm, or farm something else, that will still stay in use for some time. Play, Learn, Adapt.

~Some RA scrub.

VanDamselx · Sep 25, 2007, 05:26 PM // 17:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Du Kor

True Level 28 monsters use power to make up for brains, but your still fighting a 8 level penalty in damaging them. This makes a build that can damage level 28 monsters being able to damage level 20 foes all the more powerful. Hence the build gets nerfed to make it balance level 20 foes.

Wow, I can't think about where to start. Level 28 monsters are created so you don't go ripping through PvE and so you may have to think about your tactics. Yes, it is true that level 20 monsters are a lot easier to kill than level 28. However, if you're playing against skilled players, level 20 people are a lot harder to kill than level 20 monsters as well. Builds get nerfed when they're too powerful in general. Not because people can use these builds to annihilate a level 28 boss and thus level 20 people in PvP. And in any case, almost all damage builds in PvE can't coordinate with PvP environments, so chances are you're not even dealing with the same build.

You're still not making any sense....

VanDamselx · Sep 25, 2007, 05:28 PM // 17:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Du Kor

True Level 28 monsters use power to make up for brains, but your still fighting a 8 level penalty in damaging them. This makes a build that can damage level 28 monsters being able to damage level 20 foes all the more powerful. Hence the build gets nerfed to make it balance level 20 foes.

As for changing profession, as i said, the only reason it cant be done is that for pvp ele have to look like eles and war have to look like war. For pve this is not important. The pvp requirement removes design options for the pve element. Therefore pvp hidners pve evolution.

It still wouldn't work because of ARMOR. You know that important thing your characters have to wear?

Du Kor · Sep 25, 2007, 05:37 PM // 17:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by booooYA

It still wouldn't work because of ARMOR. You know that important thing your characters have to wear?

Hahaha... What is to say armor varients couldn't be introduced so that, say, a monk armor could have warrior armor stats. True the monk would only have 2 pips of energy regen, but he/she would have 80 armor. This will never happen because of pvp. Thats my point. Maybe if i say it a 3rd time you will hear. PvP hinders PvE development/evolution.

Yichi · Sep 25, 2007, 05:47 PM // 17:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Du Kor

Hahaha... What is to say armor varients couldn't be introduced so that, say, a monk armor could have warrior armor stats. True the monk would only have 2 pips of energy regen, but he/she would have 80 armor. This will never happen because of pvp. Thats my point. Maybe if i say it a 3rd time you will hear. PvP hinders PvE development/evolution.

.....

No it wouldn't happen because it is plain retarded. A monk relies on the 4 pips of regen that they have, along with other forms of e-management such as Glyph lesser or channeling, or whatever they spec into. No one who plays this game would be a monk with 80 armor but only having 2 pips of energy regen. Thats just plain dumb.

PvP doesnt hinder PvE development. There are many unique and original builds as well as team builds out there that work great in the PvE gameplay. Dumb ideas hinder PvE development...

Du Kor · Sep 25, 2007, 05:52 PM // 17:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by raddaman

PvP will be more important when the rewards of fame and real-life products exist. ... The simple fact makes me believe that PvErs just hate any kind of change for some reason. Find a slightly slower way to farm, or farm something else, that will still stay in use for some time. Play, Learn, Adapt.

~Some RA scrub.

Fame and real-life rewards. These are not what drives many people to play PvE. Having fun and playing a hero are important. PvE player satisfaction in the game does not come from competing with real people for status.

PvErs hate change when the change was done for soley PvP consderations.

raddaman · Sep 25, 2007, 05:52 PM // 17:52

What PvE evolution? o.O. I don't think there is such a thing unless you refer to the development of new campaigns, but.

What you desire is probably better with another game that has no classes and only armor and skills decides what you are. It doesn't make sense to put it in Guild Wars currently, because then the secondary class would be worthless, class names, and you would have to change the character models to either make them the same for everyone or choose your model at the creation screen. Then comes the problem of people crying that they want a monk with a warrior model without creating a new one, and perhaps some balance issues.

Du Kor · Sep 25, 2007, 05:57 PM // 17:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by raddaman

What PvE evolution? o.O. I don't think there is such a thing unless you refer to the development of new campaigns, but.

Yes exactly. There can be no PvE evolution because it is tied down by the requirement of PvP.

Hmm. Maybe you are somehow implying that PvE is somehow static. This is not the case. The PvE game changes almost everytime there is an update. Therefore it too evolves. My point is that PvE evolution, as provided by game updates, will always be limited in what it can change to by the millstone of PvP being hung about its neck.

VanDamselx · Sep 25, 2007, 05:58 PM // 17:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by MistressYichi

.....

No it wouldn't happen because it is plain retarded. A monk relies on the 4 pips of regen that they have, along with other forms of e-management such as Glyph lesser or channeling, or whatever they spec into. No one who plays this game would be a monk with 80 armor but only having 2 pips of energy regen. Thats just plain dumb.

PvP doesnt hinder PvE development. There are many unique and original builds as well as team builds out there that work great in the PvE gameplay. Dumb ideas hinder PvE development...

Thank you for this...

Yichi · Sep 25, 2007, 06:00 PM // 18:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Du Kor

Fame and real-life rewards. These are not what drives many people to play PvE. Having fun and playing a hero are important. PvE player satisfaction in the game does not come from competing with real people for status.

PvErs hate change when the change was done for soley PvP consderations.

Apparently reading failed you. Read the first sentance of the quote you're responding too..... (ill even bold it for you so your cant miss it unless your blind)

Quote:

Originally Posted by raddaman

PvP will be more important when the rewards of fame and real-life products exist.

raddaman · Sep 25, 2007, 06:01 PM // 18:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Du Kor

Fame and real-life rewards. These are not what drives many people to play PvE. Having fun and playing a hero are important. PvE player satisfaction in the game does not come from competing with real people for status.

PvErs hate change when the change was done for soley PvP consderations.

Saying something doesn't completely rule out other things, and it doesn't really make sense when I talk about how PvP nerfs are more important. Having fun is important to PvE too, but if you only run one skill bar it will probably become boring faster than it should be.

Perhaps it is best to understand what is needed =/. Don't think that some people hate that they didn't just burn some skills to the ground because it is widely used in PvE?

Du Kor · Sep 25, 2007, 06:06 PM // 18:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by MistressYichi

Apparently reading failed you. Read the first sentance of the quote you're responding too..... (ill even bold it for you so your cant miss it unless your blind)

The title of this thread is PvP and PvE are incompatable. My point is that the motivations are incompatable and by extension the play types are incompatable. Sorry for not expaining that to you.

Yichi · Sep 25, 2007, 06:12 PM // 18:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Du Kor

PvErs hate change when the change was done for soley PvP consderations.

Look this has been going on for 2+ years now and still needs to be said (which is the sad part):

If you're buying Guildwars for a straight PvE only game, you're playing the wrong game. The original design of the game was to have PvE and PvP correspond with one another and both will be balanced using the exact same skill set. If you're looking for a game that has no PvP involvement in it whatsoever, than Guildwars isn't the game for you.

Knowledge and research will get you the farthest and the most out of life in gaming. If you wanted a truly PvE only, run through the lillys, slay the catapillar and whatever skill you want too because that skill will always be more powerful than what the catapillar will run, than you bought the wrong game. Skill balancing will be done with PvP and PvE in mind with more of the focus on how it will effect PvP gameplay. We as a forum have said it, the developers have said it, the company that owns the game has said it. Realize it, accept it, and move on with your life. The constant bitching and whining because of skill balancing is not an issue as you'll not change this fact.

Du Kor · Sep 25, 2007, 06:26 PM // 18:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by MistressYichi

If you're buying Guildwars for a straight PvE only game, you're playing the wrong game. The original design of the game was to have PvE and PvP correspond with one another and both will be balanced using the exact same skill set. If you're looking for a game that has no PvP involvement in it whatsoever, than Guildwars isn't the game for you.

Guildwars is a great PvE only game. It is just hindered by PvP considerations. The combination may have been the initial strength of GW but things change.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MistressYichi

Knowledge and research will get you the farthest and the most out of life in gaming. If you wanted a truly PvE only, run through the lillys, slay the catapillar and whatever skill you want too because that skill will always be more powerful than what the catapillar will run, than you bought the wrong game. Skill balancing will be done with PvP and PvE in mind with more of the focus on how it will effect PvP gameplay. We as a forum have said it, the developers have said it, the company that owns the game has said it. Realize it, accept it, and move on with your life. The constant bitching and whining because of skill balancing is not an issue as you'll not change this fact.

That is not what guild wars support says. They say if you want to change something discuss it on the forums. I wish to say that PvE is being held back by PvP. And therfore the two should be separate.